Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we visited Middlefest with Shallan and her poor, broken family. And Hoid. This week, we return to the bridgemen, observing some of Kaladin’s turmoil as he struggles to make sense of his duties and desires.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. (Possible references to Elantris and Warbreaker, maybe?) The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 46: Patriots
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: Dalinar’s warcamp
Symbology: Spears, Talenel, Nalan
IN WHICH Kaladin reviews bridge crews, with mixed results; Hobber serves dinner while Renarin washes the dishes; Lopen has cousins; Kaladin gives Shen a spear and apologizes for earlier fear; Shen starts to speak but is forestalled by the appearance of Moash; Kaladin reluctantly goes out drinking with the guys; chouta is eaten in differing forms; Kaladin is confronted by the imminent possibility of married soldiers; Rock tells of the Horneater Peaks and how his people came there; Moash has arranged a meeting with his associates, and Syl warns Kaladin to be careful; Kaladin is unconvinced, but admits to himself that their arguments are almost too good; he tells Moash to stop meeting with them. Yeah, sure, Kaladin. Just like that.
Quote of the Week
“If a king is destroying his country,” the mercenary said, “is it not the right— the duty— of the people to see him removed?”
“If he were removed,” Moash said, “what would happen? Ask yourself that, Kaladin.”
“Dalinar would probably take the throne,” Kaladin said. Elhokar had a son back in Kholinar, a child, barely a few years old. Even if Dalinar only proclaimed himself regent in the name of the rightful heir, he would rule.
“The kingdom would be far better off with him at the head,” Graves said.
“He practically rules the place anyway,” Kaladin said.
“No,” Danlan said. “Dalinar holds himself back. He knows he should take the throne, but hesitates out of love for his dead brother. The other highprinces interpret this as weakness.”
“We need the Blackthorn,” Graves said, pounding the table. “This kingdom is going to fall otherwise. The death of Elhokar would spur Dalinar to action. We would get back the man we had twenty years ago, the man who unified the highprinces in the first place.”
Oh, the assumptions people make, knowing nothing of another person’s heart and mind… and the lies people tell to convince others of their position. “Patriots” indeed. Most of them are merely foolish and presumptuous (and tools); Graves is a liar and a master manipulator, and I want to pound his face just a little. (Yes. Yes, I do.)
Commentary
Welp. Clearly Brandon didn’t write this chapter with a poor reread-blogger in mind. There are two completely different revelations in this chapter, and I want to focus on both. But… they’re completely different and unrelated. *sigh* So we’ll tuck Rock’s story into Sprenspotting, because it clearly involves powerful spren and stuff, and here we’ll just look at Kaladin’s interaction with his bridge crews and with Moash’s “patriots.”
In a weird way, it’s nice to see that Kaladin’s training routines are not universally successful. (In the interest of realism, I guess?) Bridge Seventeen has come together as a unit; while they’re still a bit sloppy as soldiers, they have developed a team identity, and they’re good enough to advance to another level of training: limited patrols. So, yay 17! Nineteen looks to be not far behind, so that’s good. Eighteen, though… not so much. They’re still a bunch of sloppy, defensive, discordant individuals. Looks like they need a round of chasm duty.
Back at Bridge Four, Hobber (poor Hobber!!) is serving dinner under Rock’s proud watch, while Renarin is quietly washing dishes; apparently the rest have accepted his presence and this service, finally. Lopen has yet more cousins joining Bridge Four; I remember being more than a little worried about them on my first read! This looked so much like a set-up for betrayal: with all these random Herdazians slipping in, I was sure one of them would be a spy or a traitor. I’m delighted to have been proven wrong. Also, foreshadowing:
Kaladin found Lopen nearby, staring at his hand—which he held before himself in a fist for some reason.
We know what you’re up to with that sphere, dude… Heh.
Perhaps the single best moment in this chapter, though, is the one where Kaladin finds Shen stacking sacks of tallew grain in the storage room.
“At ease, soldier,” Kaladin said softly, stepping up to him. “I spoke to Dalinar Kholin earlier today and asked if I could arm you. He asked if I trusted you. I told him the truth.” Kaladin held out his spear to the parshman. “I do.”
And then the moment that makes me very sad… Shen clearly wants to talk to Kaladin about something, but they’re interrupted by Moash, who wants to drag Kaladin off to meet with his associates. Knowing the truth about Shen now, and (at least some of) the truth about Moash’s “friends,” I wish Moash had just put a sock in it.
He didn’t, of course, so Kaladin decides to act more human than he feels for the sake of his men, and out with the guys he traipses. And he meets Graves, and Danlan, and a couple of mercenaries who all think they’re doing this for the good of Alethkar. They’re convinced that if nasty old king Elhokar was killed – preferably in an “accident” – Dalinar would take the throne and be a real king. The Blackthorn would return, the man who united Alethkar twenty years ago, and everything would be all better.
In a way, I can’t blame the mercenaries; to some extent, they can be justified as patriots in wanting something better for their country than what they’ve got. (Elhokar is doing a terrible job of being king, even though some of his worst excesses have been reined in lately.) Danlan ought to have a little better insight, I think; she’s been in fairly close contact with Dalinar, and it seems she should realize that he’s not the storied Blackthorn of twenty years ago. I realize she can’t know about his vow to never take the throne, so maybe she can be forgiven for thinking that he is merely hesitant because of his love for his dead brother. Still, she doesn’t seem to be thinking for herself very much. Or she’s lying.
Graves, though… As we’ll see later on, he obviously thinks killing Elhokar will be good for Alethkar, but his higher allegiance is to Taravangian and the almighty stinking Diagram, which calls for Dalinar to be killed as well. Honestly, who does he think will lead Alethkar then? Or does he care? Or does he think Taravangian will become king of Alethkar too, and then he’ll fix everything?
Whatever his thoughts on the matter, he’s lying about… pretty much everything. And I do not like him.
Fortunately, neither does Kaladin, and so he says he’ll consider it, hoping that he’ll be able to walk away alive. Unfortunately, and probably due to Moash’s information, Graves knew all the right lines. Despite his orders to Moash to stop meeting them and stop talking about it, Kaladin is more than halfway to thinking they might be right even as he knows what they’re doing is wrong.
Oh, Kaladin.
Stormwatch
This is three days after the events of Kaladin’s previous chapter, when he confirmed that Moash had had something to do with the assassination attempt and agreed to meet with Moash’s “friends.” Thirty-three days remain in the countdown.
Sprenspotting
It’s like Goldilocks up in here, y’all. Little spren, medium-sized spren, and great big spren.
Syl has seen “more of those red spren” – mostly out of the corner of her eyes, watching her. Creepy. Stormspren? Kaladin certainly ties it to the countdown and the Weeping.
Flamespren… are mostly insignificant. Kaladin is exhausted, and he just wants to sit and eat and watch them dance. I can understand this. (Do we know what they look like in the Cognitive realm? I wonder if it’s relaxing to watch them there. Somehow, I doubt it.)
Sylphrena represents the medium-sized spren today; she’s certainly not small in effect, no matter that at one point she goes completely invisible. She’s turned into quite the little mommy in this chapter – although, come to think of it, she’s been like that a lot as she developed the capacity to understand Kaladin. She scolds him for not taking care of himself, and urges him to be human for a while and go out with the guys. She might have regretted that one, though, because when he goes to meet with Moash’s “patriots” she warns him to be careful, and even he can’t see her. (I wonder… did she go completely invisible because there was someone in that room she knew would be able to see her? If so, who?)
Then there are the great big spren… the ones Rock calls gods in this story, although, yes, he seems to consider all spren (or at least the sentient ones) to be gods.
“These are gods, yes,” Rock said, following Kaladin’s gaze [toward Syl]. “Yes. Some gods, though, they are more powerful than others.”
Given what we know of the Cosmere, and what little we know of Roshar’s ancient history, I’m more than a little bit willing to believe that Rock’s story is, at its bones, the truth. With help from the greater spren, why not? There may also have been help – either disguised as coming from the spren, or directly – from Honor and/or Cultivation. It’s fairly clear that Lunu’anaki was coming out of a Shardpool, and it’s possible that there is more than one up there. I’d really, really like to know more about the Horneater peaks…
At any rate, I believe it’s safe to say that the Unkalaki had Shard assistance to either find or create a habitable space on the peaks; perhaps they were originally intended to be “gatekeepers” of a sort. They’re well-positioned to keep anyone from accidentally falling into the Shardpool(s), as well as to either obstruct or assist those coming from elsewhere.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Well, well. It’s our old friend Lunu-anaki. A Hoid by any other name is still as snarky.
Having just finished rereading Elantris, the description of Lunu-anaki as a young man with white hair made me wonder if he might be an Elantrian, but too many other things fit specifically with Hoid. So I’ll go with that. For one thing, Rock describes him as “Maybe Alethi, though skin was lighter.” An Elantrian (unless he was disguised) would have silvery skin, not merely lighter than a typical Alethi. Then there’s, “Lunu-anaki cannot hurt man. Is forbidden by other gods.” We’ve seen elsewhere (Elantris and Warbreaker, I think? as well as last week’s “Middlefest” chapter) that Hoid is for some reason constitutionally unable to hurt anyone – physically, anyway. And of course, there’s Sigzil’s reaction to his description, making it fairly clear that he believes this just might be his former tutor.
The clincher just might be the fact that he mocked Rock’s beard and thought his name was funny. That’s a very Hoid thing to do.
You Have to Break a Lot of Rockbuds
Or deep-fried cremling claws… Yum? Eurgh. Apparently chouta can be made with lots of different contents. Horneater-style burritos? I think I’ll pass. I’ll stick with the fried flangria, even if it is Soulcast.
Heraldic Symbolism
Talenel and Nalan are readily understandable choices for this chapter’s Heralds. Talenel, the Soldier, is what Kaladin is all about on this particular evening. Nalan clearly reflects the “justice” that Moash is seeking, and that the others at least pretend to. I can’t help wondering if he’s got a deeper meaning as well, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Words of Radiants
When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants.
–From Words of Radiance, chapter 20, page 12
While we’ll probably never know who Simol was (unless he turns out to have been a key part of whatever led to the Recreance), this little snippet gives us a couple of juicy tidbits about the Edgedancers. They were not the most demanding of orders; they were graceful, limber, and deadly; they were articulate and refined. All these combine to make me think that the Edgedancer-spren, whatever they are, would look on Adolin as quite a good candidate.
Maybe Simol was something like Sadeas. That would be poetic.
A note on scheduling: there will be no reread post next week. I’m going on vacation, and there’s just no way I’m getting another chapter done before I leave. And I refuse to bury myself in my computer when I’m in places like this:
(Photo credit to my cousin Leon Kauffman, who takes fantastic pictures of home.)
Fortunately, there seem to be a lot of other Sanderson-related things happening on Tor.com these days, so keep your eyes open for those. We’ll meet again in two weeks, when Shallan and Pattern research maps and old scripts, and conclude mostly that they need more information.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta- and gamma-reader. (Good stuff coming in a few months, I tell you!) With Sasquan 2015 a mere six weeks away, it’s not too late to become a member. Look for Wetlander at Registration – she’d really like to meet you there.
Thanks for the excellent post, as always, Alice! Enjoy your vacation!
I don’t have a lot to add to the discussion other than agreement: Shen getting a spear is awesome, I appreciate Renarin’s growing acceptance among Bridge 4, I’m glad Kaladin got to “go out with the guys” even if it did have unfortunate side effects, Graves is definitely a tool, and I am on-board with Lunu-anaki being Hoid (Sigzil’s reaction is what solidifies it in my mind).
I’m so stormin articulate and refined I practically belch rainbows.
Good stuff, Alice! I get a huge chuckle every time I read that “most articulate and refined” line, considering the only Edgedancer we know so far…
Have a great vacation!
I believe (although I have no textual support to back this up) Danlan was a member of the Diagram (rather than a simple patriot recruited by Graves). If she was, I expect her to have left with Graves. If she was not a member of the Diagram (i.e. one of the “foolish and presumptuous (and tools)” Alice talked about above), I wonder what will happen to her. I cannot imagine that after how WoR ended, Kaladin would not reveal Danlan’s activities within Grave’s cabal if he sees her again. I would like to read a point of view from Adolin or Dalinar to see/hear their comments/thoughts when her role is revealed.
Speaking of Danlan, if I could have advised Brandon before the publication of WoR (which obviously I did not nor do I at this time have such ability), I would have proposed the following change to WoR. In my opinion, it would have made for a better story.
Adolin continues his courtship with Danlan. In fact, he tells his friends that he does not want to screw it up like his past courtships. (IIRC, Adolin did state as much in WoK.). Graves, Danlan and the other patriots would not only want to assassinate Elhokar, but would also want to kill Sadeas. This extension of the plot would give further “inducement” for Kaladin to go along with the plan. (Given Moash’s backstory, he did not need further inducement.) I never really bought Kaladin’s desire to protect Moash as the sole reason as why he should abandon his duty as Captain of the King’s guard and not tell Dalinar about the plot. The patriots (and especially Moash after the initial meeting) could have convinced Kaladin that the assassination of Elhokar would be in conjunction with the death of Sadeas. I could have bought Kaladin’s desire to not reveal the patriot’s plot.
Moreover, tying in Sadeas’ death to the plan to assassinate Elhokar would have gave greater meaning to Kaladin’s 3rd Oath: “I will protect even those I hate. So long as it is right.” I do not believe that Kaladin ever hated Elhokar. He may have not had a high opinion of Elhokar, but I do not think that Kaladin hated him. On the other hand, Kaladin does hate Sadaes.
Along with Moash trying to convince Kaladin to support the patriots, Danlan could encourage Adolin that Sadeas’ death is crucial to saving Alethkar. Up until Adolin kills Sadeas, I think Adolin would have been content to humiliate Sadeas and defeat him politically. Danlan could have convinced Adolin that only Sadeas’ death would help Alethkar and Dalinar. I do not think that Danlan would have tried to convince Adolin participate in the attempt to assassinate Elhokar. Adolin would not go that far. When Adolin confronts Sadeas at the end of WoR, Sadeas’ threats together with Danlan’s prior conversations would have pushed Adolin over the edge. It could even work if Danlan was present and, during the struggle, to yell to Adolin to remember her prior warnings about Sadeas.
Instead of a casual between Adolin and Shallan, Jasnah and Navani could have set up a casual between Shallan and Renarin. I will admit that without the Adolin and Shallan courtship, we would not have had the story about Adolin going in his Shardplate. (IMO, this was a funny scene.) I thought their interaction together was well written. However, I am sure that Brandon could have written some goods scenes between Shallan and Renarin.
Brandon would not have had to change any more of WoK to go with my scenario above. Also, when (in Book 3) Dalinar discovers that Adolin murdered Sadeas; that Danlan (Adolin’s current girlfriend — under my scenario) was involved in the plot to assassinate the king; and that the assassination plot was planned in connection with the murder of Sadeas, Dalinar could suspect/wonder if Adolin was part of the plot to kill the king. The fact that Sadeas’ murder was part of the overall plan of the patriots, then it is that much more likely that Adolin’s fall will be precipitous.
Thoughts and criticisms regarding the above are welcomed. (Wit taught me to add “regarding the above” in the previous sentence.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Maybe Lift can be graceful, limber, and deadly, but you’ll never convince me she’s articulate and refined.
“Or does he think Taravangian will become king of Alethkar too, and then he’ll fix everything?”
This. One of the diagram epigraphs mentions “beware of competition” or something along those lines. The diagram calls for Taravangian to be the only pillar of stability in town and unite everyone into a bulwark against the desolation.
Of course, this is very similar to Dalinar’s orders from the Almighty to “Create a fortress that can weather the storm.” Like Brandon says, a good villain should think he’s the hero.
I often think that Brandon wrote this tidbit about the Edgedancers, just so everyone could have a running laugh over Lift.
But you never know, she could grow up to be more articulate and refined. It worked for Ms. Doolittle.
@Wetlandernw: I wouldn’t want to be at the computer while there either! Enjoy your vacation.
Moash… Moash… He’s such a hurt little boy.
Elhokar being a bad king makes it easy for Moash to hate him. But part of me feels that even if Elhokar was a good king, Moash would still want retribution for his grandparents deaths. He’s just found a group that is letting him dress up his desire to hurt Elhokar in a nobler robe.
At the end, we are left to wonder what the rest of story will bring for him? A redemption arch? or a fall into true villainy.
To quote some random people whose names I cannot remember, I’m a long time lurker, first time poster. But anyway…
@@.-@: No offense, but I don’t feel like that would have been something good to put in WoR. First of all: Shallan and Renarin? No. It just doesn’t match with the characters. Shallan and Adolin are a perfect match for each other. Renarin is… well, not. If what you described went into the book, it wouldn’t be nearly as good as it is. Again, no offense.
Before I finish, does anyone know what type of Surgebinder Elhokar is going to be? If he’s not going to become a Surgebinder, than what is his connection with the Cryptics? He sees them in mirrors and shadows: he even says so to Kaladin later on. However, he just doesn’t seem like Lightweaver material. Sorry, Elhokar!
ALL HAIL POTATO!
I had always feared that Syl went full stealth mode right then because it was the point where Kaladin was closest to breaking his oaths (after he actually did, she was visible again whenever she was still around but also coo coo for cocapuffs).
I was thinking and I am obsessed with the idea of nightwatcher, but I was looking at this,
and since there seemed to be a correlation for opposite orders, I was thinking that truthwatchers were for nightwatcher what bondsmiths were to stormfather. Or, in essence, that truthwatcher’s spren would be nightwatcher. This would also open up the idea that what Dalinar did with the nightwatcher could have a connection with this. Also I like the significance of the inward facing orders that are different from the others.
On another topic i finally saw the faces on the outside! :P X)
@Wetlandernw – That’s home? Looks like a beautiful place! And your cousin takes fantastic pictures.
@Braid_Tug #7 – I suspect you’re right wrt Lift. Who, as it turns out, remains one of my favorite characters in these books.
Brandon is just not nice to Kaladin here. It would have been so much easier if Moash’s friends didn’t have any valid and persuasive arguments to make.
Loving all the Lift riffs… :D Especially ChocolateRob @2 – really did laugh out loud.
Nick @11 – Technically, that’s Leon’s home; when I was a kid, it was “Uncle Reuben’s place” and now his grandson lives there and runs the ranch. But yeah, it’s home. Montana… If you go on facebook and look for the #MontanaMoment hashtag, you can see a lot of his pictures there. I look at them to refresh my heart. :)
@8 Given how much they enjoy lies, I imagine Cryptics spend a lot of time spying on heads of state for sheer entertainment. Especially a king like Elhokar, whose entire day to day existence is devoted to the lie that he’s a worthy head of state.
Like wcarter @9 I also think Syl’s invisibility has to do with Kaladin’s state of mind and the risk of a broken bond rather than hiding form someone in the room. She is normally only visible to Kaladin, so there is no need to be invisible from him, to be invisible for others, and somehow I think she can’t make herself more invisible for peoble like Rock (who does see her despite the fact that she didn’t intend it).
@5 I dunno. It seems to me Lift is on her way to being pretty articulate, at least when it comes to cursing. ;)
I know earlier on the reread everyone was discussing chouta, but I was mostly lurking back then, so I’m putting in my two cents now. I kind of think of it as a tofu chalupa.
Chouta reminds me of how burritos are, but I did eat at a Mexican place earlier so clearly biased (Qdoba’s, one of those places where they have a whole row of stuff you can put in with the preferred meat, which just screams chouta to me).
It’s about here where it starts getting really interesting to see how Syl and Pattern both behave with their proto-Radiants. Syl clearly badgers Kaladin when he’s doing bad things, but Pattern seems much more chill usually (except in regard to the big lie). I’m not sure how much of this is the difference between Syl and Pattern (as they are quite different), and how much is the difference between Kaladin and Shallan’s viewpoints (Kaladin grabs onto problems and scourges himself with them, Shallan blocks off what she can so she can focus on what keeps her going).
Enjoy your vacation @Wetlandernw! It looks like a really nice place to stay at (reminds me a lot of what a cousin’s house/goat farm looks like in West Virginia, just with the Rockies instead of the Appalachians).
ChocolateRob @2: Shouldn’t that be “starvin’ articulate”?
I want to know what Graves is really up to.
In chapter 84, after Kaladin levels up, Graves says “We focused on making certain you were separated from Dalinar, and not on what our actions might push you to become!” From this, and from his involvement in the Diagram, it seems that he knows of the plan to assassinate Dalinar. Kaladin certainly figures it out.
Yet, in chapter 87, when he’s talking to Moash, he says “I thought for sure my interpretation was correct, that if we removed Elhokar, Dalinar would become our ally in what is to come. . . . Well, it appears I was wrong. Either that, or I was too slow.”
While it’s certainly possible he’s still playing Moash, I don’t think he is – it’s not like Moash can do anything other than come with Graves. Did he think that Kaladin’s presence would influence Dalinar to “sue for peace” and that his absence would somehow help Dalinar to “take the path of the warlord”? Did he not know that, at the moment he was talking to Kaladin, Szeth was hunting Dalinar? I’m bugged by this every time I read these two chapters …
@@@@@ several
Bwahahaha
Oh Lift. It’s safe to say she doesn’t wear hats.
@8: Yeah I agree Shallan and Renarin would have been a boring union… with Renarin who hardly talks and Shallan who is very forward and hopes for a come-back… If she was deceived in Adolin lack of talent in word play, imagine with Renarin who over thinks every single thing he says…There would not have been much interaction. I know some individuals in the fandom previously rooted for such a ship to sail, but I frankly do not see what these two could have in common. I can understand the Shallan/Kaladin ship (even if I do not like it), but the Shallan/Renarin never made much sense to me.
@@.-@ Nice of sharing your thoughts. Even if I disagree (I do not think Adolin could have been this easily swayed and one single mention of anyone named Kohlin on the killing list would have had him jump to the curtains), I still appreciated reading it.
As for Elhokar… what to say… He IS a bad king… I honestly do not know if he can learn to become a good one.
Nazrax @18. You forgot the Taravangian interlude. Once he realizes that there is a KR at the war camps, he tells his team to activate all of the sleepers in the war camps. Prior to that point, Graves was free to act as he saw fit. Once he got his orders, he had to separate Kaladin from Dalinar so Szeth could kill Dalinar. Graves was still free to kill Elhokar. It would more or less be beneficial for T anyways as it would plunge Alethekar into anarchy allowing T to pick up the pieces.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
re Graves and Danlan – They remind me of mercenaries everywhere, they show up in Jordan’s writing and in Sanderson’s other books – a mercenary will do and be well compensated for whatever his boss is telling him what to do. Chaos, anarchy, destruction, etc. I think Graves is defined by his very title of mercenary. He’s gone to the highest bidder. He has no other agenda.
@19 ok you made me click… love the hats!
@20 – Elhokar is a product of his environment. He was way way too young to become King when his father died, probably wasn’t even being properly trained in the art of leading as everyone assumed Gavilar would live a long and fruitful life. Now he is stuck with taking advice from Sadeas and Dalinar, who are both clearly on different sides despite their continued desire to protect hiim. He is what he was made from.
Everyone seems to be focused on the interaction between Kaladin and the Diagram operatives. I found the story told by Rock to be the most fascinating part of this chapter by far. Prepare yourselves for some text: (I will be bolding things I find relevant.)
Beginning p. 538 in hardcover:
So far, it was hard for them to think and most people were scared of them… Sounding familiar? I’m going to skip ahead to where the gods of the mountains reply to the Horneaters because I find this passage most relevant.
So we have WoB that the Horneaters have some Parshendi ancestry (right?). I see this Horneater Oceans creation story as an allegory to whatever moment brought that hybridization to pass. They were originally just dullform Parshendi who somehow managed to convince some spren to help them bridge the divide that separates human and Parshendi, allowing them to inhabit “a place of men and spirits.” What do you fine folks think?
Also, I’m going on record to say THE LOPEN ROCKS! I hope he is a full-blown Radiant, and my best guess would be a Willshaper. Enterprising, check. Erratic, check. Love of adventure, novelty, or oddity, double check. The surges of Willshapers (Transportation and Cohesion) fit him well thematically. When he was a bridgerunner, he was in charge of transporting water and other supplies Kaladin collected. His jokes and general light-hearted demeanor also help make Bridge Four a cohesive unit. Food for thought!
@27 hatchethound
The Lopen certainly is awesome and awesomely funny. Unfortunately, I doubt he will be a full blown Radiant.
But that doesn’t matter. The Lopen doesn’t need some Spren to make him special, he’s got this cousin who he helped out a few times who can totally hook him up with all the power he needs.
And by that I mean WoB is that the defining characteristics of Wind Runners is the strength of their squires. So it’s far more likely that his power is an extension of Kaladin’s.
That being said, if someone told me I was “only” getting a Xeroxed copy of my boss’ powers, but said copy would allow me to grow back my own severed limbs and possibly even fly, I would be quite happy.
@26 Hatchethound: Hmmm ….
@25 I completely disagree with your philosophy.
Why is everyone hating on Renarin?
This is bad.. I just wrote a lengthy post in reply to @20 on Elhokar and it disappeared. I will try to rephrase so if by happenstance it shall re-appear, then I apologized in advance.
Essentially, I was saying Elhokar has not been brought up adequately into kingship. We can all agree with that. We have had inklings Galivar was not as great of a man as we have been led to believe. He probably would not win he “Dad of the Year” award. However, my main criticism towards Elhokar is not the fact he may have made mistakes due to both inexperience and youth, but the fact he has never tried to correct them. He wrongly imprisoned Kaladin. It took him WEEKS, not hours or even days to manage to step on his pride and let him go. Kaladin may have offended him, but he saved his COUSINS life.
You do not judge the greatness of a man by his perfection, but by how he manages his mistakes. Elhokar screw up a few times, but he never tried to fix his errors. He simply sit and moan on how bad of a king he is. Sure, he opened to Kaladin, while being pissed out drunk, but to which end? So he could state how he tries but fails? He is missing the purpose. The purpose is not to avoid making mistakes, EVERYONE makes mistakes, it is about learning how to manage them and how to fix them.
Therefore, I will root for Elhokar the day he will man up and raise one finger to correct his misgivings.
@29: Not seeing Renarin as a possible love interest for Shallan is not hating him. It is simply admitting these two characters have little in common and their personalities are so opposing they would probably not work. I never said I did not wish for Renarin to develop any love interest (though considering his condition, I’d wager it would be extremely hard for him to do so), I said I did not think he would make an interesting couple with Shallan. Besides, Shallan and Adolin were so adorable, I cannot imagine WoR without them in it.
I hope this doesn’t double post… I wrote one but it seems to be missing…
@26 Yes! I kept reading “Unkalaki” and seeing Un-KALAK-I.
Did the Fallen Herald have something to do with Rock’s people?
I have always thought the chouta as being similar to tacos or burritos. They’re probably closer to tortas, but I can’t take the other two out of my mind white reading about them.
Something not mentioned before… What about Ka? Out the possibility of families asking the bridgemen? Teft asked Ka to read him Dalinar’s visions, will she continue to be their nexus to the female arts or will Shallan help with that?
Aaaaand about the Horneaters… Maybe they were rejected because of their mixed ancestry? As in they began as a people mixed, not as changed parshmen. Other folks would probably consider the Voidbringer/human hybrid worse than a parshman. Agreed on all other points.
@TheDiagram I just saw the LARKIN. In all honesty, they seemed like maps to me, until the comments on Rysn’s interlude made me take another look yesterday.
Are Heralds native to Roshar? I know the spren copied their powers in order to make KR’s so where did the originals come from? Were they Worldhoppers? Did they come from Odium’s original world? Any WOB on this?
Chouta sounds like spring rolls. I first thought of crêpes, but the frying doesn’t fit.
@29 – Thank you for that incredibly detailed and thought-out explanation on why you completely and totally disagree with me…
I always thought chouta sounded like a really juicy gyro. I’m pretty sure it’s described with a thick wrap.
There are so many twists and turns in this book. After this cheaper you’re left wondering where in the hell all of this is going, then you remember that half of the book remains.
@26 I agree that the most interesting part is was Rock’s narrative about the horneater origins. How susceptible are they to voidspren? Or do the spren that they partnered with protect them? Do all horneaters see the gods? Just Rock? Does Rock see voidspren? What role will the horneaters play in the coming desolation?
I had Chouta this week!
Well they were actually arepas from a Venezuelan restaurant, but they fit the description pretty well, and were really good, especially with the spicy sauce!
Mr Musespren, I actually kinda like your modifications, but there is one important thing I think you missed — Kaladin hates Lighteyes.
Also, on chouta, I think we should just follow the Neuhaus Sandwich rule: http://www.npr.org/sections/waitwait/2011/10/18/141472277/sandwich-monday-defining-sandwich
I was reading the last post about Middlefest and this seemingly random thought/question came to me.
Has anyone ever asked Brandon (or has he ever mentioned) if the surges work differently for each of the Orders that have access to the same one? By this I mean does Illumination work exactly the same way for Lightweavers and Truthwatchers or Gravitation the same for Windrunners and Skybreakers etc? I thought I recalled something that stated there was a primary and secondary surge for each Order but that doesn’t speak to the application of the surge being the same across the orders though. Thoughts anyone?
Delat, I’ve wondered this myself. We don’t even know whether a particular serge always manifests the same way between 2 members of the same order. The closest comparison we’ve seen is between Szeth and Kaladin. Though Szeth is not Windrunner (KR), he and Kal used their gifts in similar ways. Lightweaving, however, appears to be a more fluid art form. Shallen used her drawing to create visual illusion. Hoid used music (also not an exact comparison. Hold can light weave, but he is not a Lightweaver) Though they each approached their magic in different ways, the end results were the same. To me, it would be truly interesting to see how Renarin (Truthwatcher) approaches lightweaving. It would be cool if he could create visual representations of the future. I somehow don’t see art or music playing a role in his ability to lightweave. I expect Truthwatchers to take a different approach, but we just don’t know.
@43. Delat / 44. Re surges…
We do have Shallan and Jasnah, who can both Transform and in using the “pure” form of Transformation I guess they use the surge similarly (Jasnah transforming stone to smoke and Shallan a goblet into blood). But a while back we discussed that the different orders somehow gain special abilities by somehow combining the two surges, which would be uniqute to each order. (Shallan using her lightweaving/illumination skills to then “transform” people – like the deserted soldiers did.)
I think the discussion was in thread of chapter 20 and/or 21, for example see comment 26 and 34 (with WoB) respectively …
Shallan and Jasnah! *slaps forehead* I shouldn’t try to write coherant posts after a hard day at the hospital! :) Yes, they seem to approach transformation in much the same way.
I was thinking about that particular WoB, which made me wonder how Renarin, a Truthwatcher, might combine his two surges, illumination and progression. It seems logical that he would use light weaving to illuminate his visions.
@46 I’m having the same reaction for having forgotten about those two.
However, while my memory is fuzzy on the subject, doesn’t Jasnah admit to having difficulty with certain “types” of transformations? If so I wonder if Shallan has the same difficulties or if she (Shallan) finds it easier to transform the things that Jasnah finds a bit more difficult.
@wetlander, I just finished the mistborn series. are there any theories on the fact that Ruin’s body at the end manifested with red hair? there are several people in the sanderson universe with red hair.
@48
That person was Ati. The man who took the Shard to become Ruin.
oh ok, thanks for the clarification. the recent article by Martin Cahill is very interesting.